Thank you so much for this essay. I'm an unknown guy living in the American Midwest, a lifelong. self-identified secular humanist agnostic finding myself attracted to Christianity specifically as a result of reading Tom Holland's Dominion, among many other authors, including Jonathan Haidt, Douglas Murray, Christopher Lasch, and Rene Girard. Such authors prompted me to enter a program for potential converts at my local Catholic church. But I find myself overwhelmed with hesitancy about making a leap to actual, credal commitment.
Your essay made me once again confront the question of why I'm hesitant. I think it has to do with the fact, as your essay points out, on some level I can't regard credal Christian truth claims as true -- although, like Holland in the desert witnessing the atrocities of the Islamic State, I also inexplicably want them to be true. Yet I engage in the kind of coding that you describe, in which I regard theology and credal religious claims, or even wanting those claims to be true, as irrational, and not in a good way.
That leads to my other core reason for hesitancy, which is my unwillingness to fully abandon moral claims of modernity about human sexuality, the body, and individual freedom of conscience more broadly. To be excessively crass, I just can't bring myself to a belief that the omnipotent, omniscient force responsible for existence, who came to Earth in human form to preach a gospel of love, cares about whether I masturbate, or watch a porn video, or have no problem with two men making love to each other. I understand and empathize with and in many ways agree with Christian objections to sexual license and the social dangers of turning sexuality and gender and identity into idolatry. Yet I also find many of those same objections tied to punitive (penal substitution) theology like that of William Lane Craig. Which I understand makes serious claims worth seriously considering but which I find existentially repellant.
I don't want any of this to come across as a typical internet troll trying to score points. I just am genuinely in a state of existential, spiritual, crisis, fearing what cultural and religious conflict over all of these questions will mean for the future of the United States and the West. I'm confused and lonely and terrified.
But your essay made me stop and contemplate in ways I can't put into words, and I wanted to say thank you. Take good care.
Hey man, I don't know you, but this comment has touched a lot of people who are now praying for you. Thanks so much for reading and for the thoughtfulness and sensitivity you put into your response. There's a lot to say and I might come back to write a longer comment later. Meanwhile if you want to hit me up and chat through any of this some more feel free to reach out at estherioreilly[at]gmail.com.
I want to start off by saying I was you, perhaps even am you. My wife & I attend a Catholic Church but I’m neither baptized nor confirmed. I’m open even to some of the “irrational” claims of the Church, but whenever I hear too much about Jesus in our contemporary lives I start thinking of Buddy Christ from “Dogma”. Yet I also think the Church & esp. its traditional have been right about too much to ignore. On questions of Catholic Sexual Morality, specially, the best exponent I’ve heard is Christopher West. You can find where he covers it all here: https://youtu.be/FEyKY0myS9M?si=lfIcR78xbSdbeWeX
I bet there are places he covers your specific questions better and at greater length. I just wanted to give you a good catch-all. I don’t know his work well but was taken with this.
Dude. There are lots of Christians who take the Bible to be a peak of actual revelation filtered through ancient tribal prejudices (signal and noise), accept the major metaphysical doctrines (answering objections like I did long ago in The Logic of God Incarnate and yet ascribe much of the controversial gender and sex stuff to the survival felt needs of ancient tribalism. While Christianity isn’t a wide open cafeteria of ideas, subtle distinctions and disavowals can be compatible with discipleship and real faith. Continue your adventure boldly.
I fear that arguments are not sufficient, since I don't think it was arguments that were primarily behind the end of Christian dominance in the west. Most of the classical arguments of natural theology still seem defensible to me, if one takes their still widely accepted premises (things like the principle of sufficient reason) as true. But reason by itself cannot usually defeat lust and avarice, and it is sex and greed, not reason, that has lead to the decline of Christianity among the general public.
I agree with you that arguments seem insufficient. Popular vices seem more like a consequence of a deeper shortcoming, though. Or maybe just part of a feedback loop?
Anyway, the older I get (maybe the deeper down the rabbit holes of reason I venture), the more compelling I find the (Vonnegut?) quote: “Music is, to me, proof of the existence of God.”
Sometimes I’ll think to myself, “I’m paying for too many subscriptions. I should cut back.” Then I’ll get your latest article and realize there is no way I can do without your writing. On another note, I have a couple of your mom’s books that I’m working my way through now. God bless your family for your service to the kingdom.
The 'meaning crisis' can never be overcome by the secularist. All the pretending, and all the hiding eventually fail. The 'tide' of Christian faith always comes back in because God is truth.
People tie themselves in knots trying to think their way to knowing God. Does God exist, how can I know? We rarely get it that the mind and all the thinking is the very thing that blocks the experiencing of God, who begins where thought ends. A real problem for intellectuals in particular! Thought won’t get you there but longing for a touch of grace can. You can still think about it all, but ITS not all in the mind.
The attraction to Christ of figures like Peterson et. al. is fascinating and amusing, in a cordial way, to watch. One wonders at the affection Christ must have felt when he told the scribe "you are not far from the kingdom of God". And one wonders how that answer intrigued the scribe and hopefully prompted him to tear his rooms apart looking for that irritatingly lost coin. "He said 'not far', why didn't he say 'you are here'?"
Intellect is a faculty we can sin with, just as we sin with our tongues, hands, etc. A noted preacher used to counsel young urban folk who would express curiosity, but pester him with intellectual arguments against Christ. At some point invariably he would ask them "so, who are you sleeping with, that's actually keeping you from accepting Christ?" That question would illustrate how the intellectual capacity is tied up with the will and the body.
When I think of those spiritual jolts I always think of Flannery O'Connor and her characters.
I'm looking forward to Peterson's new book. Apparently he believes he can disprove atheism? His wife is catholic and his daughter has also converted to Christianity...I wonder where he stands now.
Thank you so much for this essay. I'm an unknown guy living in the American Midwest, a lifelong. self-identified secular humanist agnostic finding myself attracted to Christianity specifically as a result of reading Tom Holland's Dominion, among many other authors, including Jonathan Haidt, Douglas Murray, Christopher Lasch, and Rene Girard. Such authors prompted me to enter a program for potential converts at my local Catholic church. But I find myself overwhelmed with hesitancy about making a leap to actual, credal commitment.
Your essay made me once again confront the question of why I'm hesitant. I think it has to do with the fact, as your essay points out, on some level I can't regard credal Christian truth claims as true -- although, like Holland in the desert witnessing the atrocities of the Islamic State, I also inexplicably want them to be true. Yet I engage in the kind of coding that you describe, in which I regard theology and credal religious claims, or even wanting those claims to be true, as irrational, and not in a good way.
That leads to my other core reason for hesitancy, which is my unwillingness to fully abandon moral claims of modernity about human sexuality, the body, and individual freedom of conscience more broadly. To be excessively crass, I just can't bring myself to a belief that the omnipotent, omniscient force responsible for existence, who came to Earth in human form to preach a gospel of love, cares about whether I masturbate, or watch a porn video, or have no problem with two men making love to each other. I understand and empathize with and in many ways agree with Christian objections to sexual license and the social dangers of turning sexuality and gender and identity into idolatry. Yet I also find many of those same objections tied to punitive (penal substitution) theology like that of William Lane Craig. Which I understand makes serious claims worth seriously considering but which I find existentially repellant.
I don't want any of this to come across as a typical internet troll trying to score points. I just am genuinely in a state of existential, spiritual, crisis, fearing what cultural and religious conflict over all of these questions will mean for the future of the United States and the West. I'm confused and lonely and terrified.
But your essay made me stop and contemplate in ways I can't put into words, and I wanted to say thank you. Take good care.
Hey man, I don't know you, but this comment has touched a lot of people who are now praying for you. Thanks so much for reading and for the thoughtfulness and sensitivity you put into your response. There's a lot to say and I might come back to write a longer comment later. Meanwhile if you want to hit me up and chat through any of this some more feel free to reach out at estherioreilly[at]gmail.com.
Your comment really resonated with me. Thanks for sharing!
I want to start off by saying I was you, perhaps even am you. My wife & I attend a Catholic Church but I’m neither baptized nor confirmed. I’m open even to some of the “irrational” claims of the Church, but whenever I hear too much about Jesus in our contemporary lives I start thinking of Buddy Christ from “Dogma”. Yet I also think the Church & esp. its traditional have been right about too much to ignore. On questions of Catholic Sexual Morality, specially, the best exponent I’ve heard is Christopher West. You can find where he covers it all here: https://youtu.be/FEyKY0myS9M?si=lfIcR78xbSdbeWeX
I bet there are places he covers your specific questions better and at greater length. I just wanted to give you a good catch-all. I don’t know his work well but was taken with this.
Good luck. God bless.
Dude. There are lots of Christians who take the Bible to be a peak of actual revelation filtered through ancient tribal prejudices (signal and noise), accept the major metaphysical doctrines (answering objections like I did long ago in The Logic of God Incarnate and yet ascribe much of the controversial gender and sex stuff to the survival felt needs of ancient tribalism. While Christianity isn’t a wide open cafeteria of ideas, subtle distinctions and disavowals can be compatible with discipleship and real faith. Continue your adventure boldly.
I fear that arguments are not sufficient, since I don't think it was arguments that were primarily behind the end of Christian dominance in the west. Most of the classical arguments of natural theology still seem defensible to me, if one takes their still widely accepted premises (things like the principle of sufficient reason) as true. But reason by itself cannot usually defeat lust and avarice, and it is sex and greed, not reason, that has lead to the decline of Christianity among the general public.
I agree with you that arguments seem insufficient. Popular vices seem more like a consequence of a deeper shortcoming, though. Or maybe just part of a feedback loop?
Anyway, the older I get (maybe the deeper down the rabbit holes of reason I venture), the more compelling I find the (Vonnegut?) quote: “Music is, to me, proof of the existence of God.”
Sometimes I’ll think to myself, “I’m paying for too many subscriptions. I should cut back.” Then I’ll get your latest article and realize there is no way I can do without your writing. On another note, I have a couple of your mom’s books that I’m working my way through now. God bless your family for your service to the kingdom.
That's incredibly kind and generous of you to say, although this particular article is in fact free!
The 'meaning crisis' can never be overcome by the secularist. All the pretending, and all the hiding eventually fail. The 'tide' of Christian faith always comes back in because God is truth.
Did Jesus stick with the majority? Hardly, and it wasn't safer, either. But it was right.
People tie themselves in knots trying to think their way to knowing God. Does God exist, how can I know? We rarely get it that the mind and all the thinking is the very thing that blocks the experiencing of God, who begins where thought ends. A real problem for intellectuals in particular! Thought won’t get you there but longing for a touch of grace can. You can still think about it all, but ITS not all in the mind.
Dawkins of course published his reasons for not debating your Christian apologist guy. Those reasons don't comport with your snarky 'bark but no bite' quip. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/oct/20/richard-dawkins-william-lane-craig
The attraction to Christ of figures like Peterson et. al. is fascinating and amusing, in a cordial way, to watch. One wonders at the affection Christ must have felt when he told the scribe "you are not far from the kingdom of God". And one wonders how that answer intrigued the scribe and hopefully prompted him to tear his rooms apart looking for that irritatingly lost coin. "He said 'not far', why didn't he say 'you are here'?"
Intellect is a faculty we can sin with, just as we sin with our tongues, hands, etc. A noted preacher used to counsel young urban folk who would express curiosity, but pester him with intellectual arguments against Christ. At some point invariably he would ask them "so, who are you sleeping with, that's actually keeping you from accepting Christ?" That question would illustrate how the intellectual capacity is tied up with the will and the body.
When I think of those spiritual jolts I always think of Flannery O'Connor and her characters.
For me it is distilled down to “I believe”. Believing and knowing are two very different things.
I'm looking forward to Peterson's new book. Apparently he believes he can disprove atheism? His wife is catholic and his daughter has also converted to Christianity...I wonder where he stands now.